Time out from the shallow stuff for a sec.... In my court, we get alot of people w/ tickets for driving without a license. About half of the people cited for this are illegal aliens who cannot get driver's licenses b/c of their illegal status. One of our judges has apparently gotten fed up..
Yesterday in open court, he started asking Latino defendants if they were "illegal" and if they "swam across the river" to get here. He also threatened to deport a couple defendants if he saw them in his court again. It was pretty damn degrading. In addition, he asked a guy w/ a ticket for driving w/ out a license how he got to court that day (a valid question). Well, the guy says his sister-in-law drove and pointed to a Latino lady in the audience. The judge then demanded that the lady produce her driver's license. Fortunately for her, she was able to show one. .
Still.. I was pretty bothered by the whole thing. Here's my position: immigration status is only relevant if we are talking about identification of the defendant OR if we're setting bail (because we have to determine if there is a flight risk).
If the person appears in court like he/she is supposed to, and we're satisfied w/ their identification (through fingerprints, booking photo, ID, whatever), it shouldn't matter what their immigration status is after that - that's not our jurisdiction. Neither the city, the county, nor the state has jurisdiction over immigration. You wanna know why? Cuz it's a purely federal issue. Says so right in the constitution.
I am 100% of the opinion that immigration status should play no part in determining sentencing. I don't want to know why you don't have a license - only that you don't. And anyone who doesn't have one should get the same penalty, regardless of their accent, skin color, nationality, etc. It just invites racism to consider immigration status as a factor for sentencing. That's what I think. I've got a Latino last name, is that going to get me a harsher sentence if I commit a traffic offense and forget to bring my driver's license to court?? I should not have to be subjected to that kind of suspicion just b/c of my name and skin tone. If the ICE (as the INS is now called) isn't doing a good job w/ its deportation procedure, that's the ICE's problem.
Am I just raging crazy liberal on this? What's the consensus?
New Roof - Summer 2019
4 years ago
21 comments:
I agree with you - Immigration status should have nothing to do with this type of issue... and ICE (DHS) is not doing their job very well ... I know this because I work for ICE!
Ok, so say I robbed a bank somewhere on the east coast and I am now in your court for driving without a liscence. If the judge now discoveres that I'm a bank robber wanted federally. Is it your consensus that I should only be held and punished for my local crime of Driving w/o liscence and not be sent to the feds for my bank robbery?
If an illegal immigrant is discovered in your court then he should transfered over to the feds for deportation or other punishments.
This is key to our great economy. We must keep our working class oppressed.
Yeah, see, that's fine. That's what's supposed to happen. They get whatever punishment they need to get here, and then they get released to the feds, right? Cool, that's not a sentencing issue though.
Also, the only problem w/ this ideal scenario is that the feds don't care and don't want them. They're too busy w/ the serious criminals to take the minor traffic offense types.
Well, I think parents whose licenses have been revoked for failure to pay child support should get all kinds of fucked up for driving without a license.
Your judge is ignoring the basic tenents of human decency. I'm sure though if he is human, he has days when he's frustrated with dealing with the same shit over and over again - all judges are like this from time to time.
Unfortunately, I do not believe there is a law that people who drive without licenses and their families deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
But it's troubling.
What do you think you can do about it?
Besides whine on my whiny prosecutor blog? Not a whole lot. I've already talked to my boss about this, and he thinks immigration is a relevant sentencing factor.
I should look up some California caselaw on it and leave it in his box though. (NV has like 3 cases total in its entire history).
I guess the only thing to do now is keep recommending the sentences I think are fair, and if I get rejected, so be it.
I agree with you, Claudia...As a non-lawyer, I don't see how immigration status is relevant in sentencing. You are "punishing" someone for one particular crime and the feds should deal with the immigration issue. Should they be reported to ICE, sure, but if ICE doesn't act, that's no your prob.
Regardless of ones immigration status, they shouldn't be harassed in court about it or subjected to racial slurs.
Well if the judge knows and we all know the feds wont do squat about illegals then I think it's alright if the local judge picks up some of the fed's slack in punishing the illegals. I say cheers for your judge being so pro-active where our country needs help.
Go opression!
When I was in England, I noticed that license was spelled licence. I wonder if that's the whole issue. Actually, I do think undocumented aliens are among us and should be held for longer periods of time. You have read about the anal probing that these aliens do... Well maybe when they go to jail, they can get a dose of their own medicine.
- Okay, I was being silly, sorry.
ok well my opinion is always the same. if you dont have a drivers license, take the bus. period. if you cant get a drivers license because you are illegal, then dont put yourself at risk of getting caught, dont drive. if they are dumb enough to do it, then they should get a stronger punishment. even legals should be punished harsher for not having a license because its been revoked or suspended. this is where stupid laws should come in. if you are a dumb criminal, then you should be punished for it. seriously, if they just played by the rules then they would be ok
and this leads me to another point. if they would have gone thru the process of becoming a citizen in the first place, then they would have been able to get a license and then they wouldnt be in so much trouble. i praise this judge....
Randi,
You cannot become a citizen if you are here illegally. There is no process. None. Never. Nada. Zip. You go back to your country and try to get a visa. It's very difficult to get any visa to come here, esp if you are poor and from a developing nation. Even if you get married to an American (it can be a 3 year process for a green card), even if you have a degree and skill. Your best bet is to have family (here legally) bring you over. I'm not arguing this is a good or bad thing, it's just the reality of why this situation is such.
The real question is basic- should there be added insult and punishment for simply being illegal? Should someone drive w/o a license? Of course not. Should they be ridiculed and get extra punishment for something that's unrelated to the offense?
I'm with Claudia- no. No one should be ridiculed, period. Hand 'em over to the feds.
I guess I should clarify. We're not talking about suspended or revoked licenses here. Those crimes have their own unique penalties (Revoked license for DUI, for example, carries a mandatory 30-day jail stay). I'm talking about Driving Without a License, meaning the person just never got one. Not that they're a dead-beat parent, or that they have warrants, or that they have too many tickets. Those are all different scenarios w/ different penalties.
The standard punishment for this offense I'm talking about is a $500 fine and mandatory traffic school. The idea has been thrown around to double the fine for illegals to $1000. This is the real issue.
I disagree with this practice. Immigration status is not an element of the offense here. The elements of that offense are: 1) Driving and 2) Not having a license at the time.
I think it's ICE's job to address immigration, not the local government's. Also, apart from having no legal basis whatsoever for doing so, I don't think the local government even has the resources to fairly enforce immigration rules. They can't search a database to see if someone is truly undocumented. So that leaves racial profiling and requiring an overly broad group, which includes American citizens, legal permanent residents, and undocumented persons, to prove citizenship on demand. This isn't a border crossing. Screw that.
I'm just as American as anyone else and I refuse to be treated that way. I also refuse to treat anyone else that way.
((stepping down from my soapbox))
it's true. people who are here illegally cannot become citizens. contrary to popular belief, they also can't get welfare.
I should interview Randi's friends.... good suggestion...are you game?
Okay, I'm a legal residental alien, and I lived here all my life (21 Years) but I wasn't born in this country. I feel just as American as anyone else. BUT, I still have to take the naturalization test, which is freaking long and freaking expensive. (Take months of waiting, there is a process, and a $350 fee that differs from state to state) I have a license but the state I am currently residing in won't allow me to get another license until I do some more paper work (get a renewal on my residential alien card, which will take months because USCIS (Citizenship and Immigration Services) put me on hold. You can't imagine how difficult it is to do anything nowadays! I tried to get a library card and I can't even get that! And again, I am a LEGAL residential alien!! SO I can't even imagine the BS the other people have to go through. I feel like, we all live on the same earth, so why can't we just all get along!!
Okay, I'm a legal residental alien, and I lived here all my life (21 Years) but I wasn't born in this country. I feel just as American as anyone else. BUT, I still have to take the naturalization test, which is freaking long and freaking expensive. (Take months of waiting, there is a process, and a $350 fee that differs from state to state) I have a license but the state I am currently residing in won't allow me to get another license until I do some more paper work (get a renewal on my residential alien card, which will take months because USCIS (Citizenship and Immigration Services) put me on hold. You can't imagine how difficult it is to do anything nowadays! I tried to get a library card and I can't even get that! And again, I am a LEGAL residential alien!! SO I can't even imagine the BS the other people have to go through. I feel like, we all live on the same earth, so why can't we just all get along!!
PS... I'm a college student who is currently broke, studying art... so you can imagine
You bring up a good point - kids brought here by their parents, who had nothing to do w/ their being brought over illegally. What are they supposed to do, run away from home and deport themselves? What about when they turn 18 and have known no other home other than the US?
I do agree that the judge was going a little too far in asking a member of the observing courtroom if she had a license. That was out of hand, but suggesting status has no bearing on anything and shouldn't, well, I don't agree. Our DHS should be able to pick up people that are found without proper documentation, or are able to prove it. And, no, Claw, get off the liberal horse, your last name does not decide how a cop will treat you, but your behavior will. I don't believe that we do have the resources to handle this on a local level, but I wish we did. Your last name will not simply be what you are judged upon, but the way you speak, the way you act, etc... I'm a little surprised that you're willing to take SUCH a liberal stance on this knowing the drain on the economy that illegals are making here. I've seen the fake id's taken and fake social security cards and the jobs they are taking and the crimes they are committing (beyond the hokey one you mentioned.) I feel the judge has every right to be acutely annoyed, but his manner of dealing with it was less than professional. Oh, and the kids born here are considered US citizen by birth right, not by blood. That's just another proof of American $$ paying for something because we supposedly promise a better life to billions of people. So, they come here, pop out a couple of babies, and we Americans (rightfully so) get to foot the bill. I'd love to see Claw work in Immigration for a couple of years and see if she still feels the same. It made a different thinker out of me...
Vanessa
Vanessa - I did not say immigration didn't have anything to do w/ anything. I said it shouldn't be a factor for _sentencing_. Undocumented persons get arrested for traffic offenses that documented persons don't get arrested for, and that's fine w/ me. That's a bail issue, not a sentencing issue. We have to make sure defendants are identified (fingerprinted) and that they return for their court dates. My beef here was w/ treating Latinos (both legal and illegal) in a derogatory manner and with going one step further and sentencing them more harshly because of their nationality/immigration status.
One more point about this is that it shifts the burden onto Latinos to prove that they ARE citizens. As an American, I shouldn't be singled out and assumed to be "illegal" because of my name or my race. Neither should that lady in the audience. I can't even tell you how many amendments to the constitution that violates.
Just because you say my last name doesn't determine how people treat me doesn't make it true. I get all-Spanish telemarketing calls that I bet "the Wards" don't. Mr. Felgar has never gotten one anyway.. Why? Because someone somewhere has predetermined that because I have a Spanish last name, I only speak Spanish. That's a stereotype that gets me different treatment than you.
They've actually done studies re: "black" names, and found that those people don't get hired as often as those with WASP names. Why do you think Ricardo Martinez changed to Ricky Martin, and Ramon Estevez changed to Martin Sheen, and Carlos Estevez changed to Charlie Sheen? B/c people pre-judge you based on your name. Come back and argue this again after you've tried out a Latino last name for a few years.
In response to the argument that undocumented persons commit bad crimes, so do documented persons. And undocumented persons also have jobs and pay taxes and go to church and take care of their families. This despite the fact that they know they're second-class citizens and have no possibility of ever becoming documented. And they "pop-out" kids that go on to serve in the military and get educations and become doctors, etc. etc. How do I know this? Because I have undocumented family and because I did immigration law in law school, and defended good, hard-working people in their deportation proceedings. People who probably deserved citizenship more than many useless arrogant American citizens do.
I'll take this opportunity to point out that California - land of immigrants, both legal and illegal, (32% latino by current census data) is the 7th largest economy IN THE WORLD, beating out China, Brazil and Spain. What was that about immigrants being a drain on what?
Another interesting study was one done at Berkeley in the 70's. That was a psychology study where they put students in a mock prison situation for a couple of weeks. It didn't take long for the "guards" to start dehumanizing and abusing the "prisoners." I would never work for ICE because of the inherent risk of dehumanizing good people. I think that's part of the problem here.
I guess my problem is w/ putting this cloak of "illegal immigrant" on people and assuming they're evil. And even before that, putting a cloak on dark-skinned, latino-named, accent-having folks and just assuming they're "illegal" (and thus inherently evil), and then making them prove they're not. Like I said, that's violative of so many American principles. My stance is to just judge people on what they've done, no matter how serious or minor the offense, and just deal with that, regardless of name, race, skin tone, religion, or nationality.
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